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There seems to be a lack of ethics in poker. I'm going to cover a couple topics: sitting other regs/professionals HU and registering for another player's game with the intention of blinding them down when they aren't there. I will use this new Merge reg (reg wannabe might be more accurate) tyraak for both examples.
I've recently read posts on forums from players who think it's unethical to sit other regulars/professional players. This is absolute nonsense. We're all in competition together. Being able to sit first in a HU SNG is a privilege that must be earned, not a right. Hehasrisen said it best "If I can't hold my own against other regs that's my problem, not theirs." I couldn't have said it better myself. Me letting weaker regs open sit the same lobbies as me without sitting them is like Apple saying to Dell "You know what, why don't you just take 1% of our sales." Do you realize how ridiculous that is? I'm sitting you and beating you fair and square in competition. When Kobe drives the lane Lebron doesn't move out of the way and say "you know what pal, you have this bucket." If you don't like playing other regs then either move down in stakes to where you are left alone, or don't play when those particular regs are on. It's that simple and there's plenty of regs who follow that strategy.
That brings me to tyraak. I'm only using him as an example for this to tie into my next story. The first time I sat tyraak he said "sorry I only fish." He then proceeded to time down every single hand in each game we played. Some people have a problem with the ethics of timing down. It's kind of a grey area but I don't really have a huge problem with it. He knows I am a better player and is probably timing down for a couple of reasons. First off, my edge will be smaller as the blinds increase. Second off, he probably thinks I'll get so annoyed that I won't sit him anymore. He's 100% wrong on the second part, but that's besides the point. Ethically, I don't think I really have a problem with it. That doesn't mean I think he's smart for doing it. Basically, all this strategy is going to do is piss off other regs and get him "sat for life." Also, the fact that the game against him is moving so slow really allows me to play an extra table that I normally wouldn't. With 4 tables running, 1 of them against him and his stalling tactics, it's really more comparable to 3.25 tabling, since I have far less decisions in his game than the average game. Tyraak only sits $250 HU SNGs. He doesn't sit higher or lower. That brings me to my next point.
Yesterday I forgot to unregister for a $500 and a $1K. I often don't unregister for them until my last game is actually over, simply because the games are so valuable that I'm usually willing to play overtime if one goes off. However, this also makes it easier to forget to unregister for tthe games since you aren't doing it at the same time as all of your other games. That may cause me to re-evaluate this process of unregistering from games. Anyway, I ended up coming into my office at the very end of these games that I forgot to unregister from. Tyraak was sitting me in both games and I had pretty different chip counts, meaning he registered for one game significantly later than the other. I pushed all in with about 6BBs on 1 table and lost, while I was on my last chip at the other table and lost. I tried to get his attention in the chat, which I'm sure he probably saw, but he didn't respond. I'm guessing either one of two things happened:
1. Since tyraak started playing HU I had never been registered for only the $500 and $1K lobby with 0 games running. He may have noticed this and suspected that I had simply forgotten to unregister for these games. He decided to sit the $500 and find out. Once he knew I wasn't at the tables, he sat the $1K and simultaneously blinded me down on both tables.
2. Tyraak misclick registered for one of the games. Once it became blatantly obvious that I wasn't there, he sat my other game with the intention of blinding me down at both tables.
Regardless of how it happened, one thing is clear: Tyraak sat at least one of my tables, knowing that I wasn't there, with the intention of blinding me down. Before I get into this more, let me first state that I am well aware that this unfortunate situation is my own fault. I forgot to double check my lobbies before leaving my office. That's something every poker player needs to get in the habit of doing. Had I done so, none of this would have happened. Having said that, tyraak is still a complete scumbag for what he did. I'm appalled that some poker players are actually defending his actions, which is what motivated me to write this blog. I think this is very similar to other real life situations and I'll give a couple examples. In the first example a business owner forgets to lock up his store when he leaves. This is certainly his own fault, but that doesn't mean it's ethical to rob the guy when you find out that the door is unlocked. In the second example a man drops his wallet on the street. The wallet contains his identification, some cash, and some credit cards. It's his own fault for dropping the wallet. It's a careless mistake. However, if you pick the wallet up you know who it belongs to, and keeping the wallet and/or the belongings is 100% unethical and I would call you a piece of shit if you chose to do so. The right thing to do is to give the wallet to the police or return it to the owner's address.
I really don't think anyone in their right mind would argue the ethics of those two examples. However, since we're hiding behind a computer screen all of a sudden otherwise intelligent people don't see what's wrong with a similar situation. If I were tyraak I would have also sat my second game with the intention of blinding me down. However, I would be doing this so that another scumbag didn't have the opportunity to come along and blind the player down, keeping their money. I would then transfer the buy-ins back to the player, minus the rake I paid so that the games didn't cost me anything. If you want to argue for a small finder's fee I would probably be fine with that.
I reimburse people all the time who disconnect from their internet while playing me. It's what I believe is the right thing to do. However, that's a little more of a grey area than the tyraak situation. In the internet disconnection situations we are already playing the game. In the tyraak situation he clearly went out of his way to knowingly take money from somebody he knew wasn't there, at games he normally doesn't even play.
Situations like this are part of the reason why poker gets such a bad name sometimes. There are many great people in poker, but there are also pieces of shit like tyraak who bring the reputation of the rest of us down. I would say to the poker community: stop being greedy, unethical scumbags and have some morals! Money isn't everything. Think of other people for once.
I would like to start putting together a better compilation of my popular blog posts. If there is a particular blog post that you really liked, please feel free to let me know by commenting on here, emailing me, tweeting me, or sending me an IM on Skype or AIM.
Thanks & GL,
Jared
http://www.jaredhubbard.com/
http://twitter.com/jhubpoker
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I agree...greed never brings in luck...in the long run...
ReplyDeleteI think sitting somebody you know is d/c with the intention of blinding them out and keeping the money is an incredibly scummy thing to do. I had a guy do that to me on FTP once, I d/c during the match and when i got my internet connection back 10 min later i saw he had sat the other 3 games I was in and blinded me down in every one of them. He was not a reg, or even a winning player for that matter though. He was actually a pretty big fish which actually surprised me more that he would do it. Not sure if the fact he was a fish and not a reg makes it any more forgivable or not. Pretty shitty either way.
ReplyDeleteAs far as someone d/c during a game I always blind players down and keep the money and I don't expect any different if I d/c(maybe some people would consider this scummy i guess). I guess I look at it as making up for all the times I lose BI's from d/c, they kinda cancel each other out. The only exception is if I am pretty sure the player would send me my BI back I will do the same for him. I would never in a million years think about sitting other lobbies of the d/c player though. It seems very different.
As far as players timing down, I guess I think that's pretty shitty. Seems like such a dick move. You were open sitting a lobby which means any player has the right to sit you, so just play the game out. As you mentioned though I don't think it has the effect the player is hoping for most of the time. It just pisses the player off who is sitting them and makes them do it more.
This entire post is ridiculous Jhub. You completely monopolize sng, so if by chance you leave all 20 tables regged and leave. That's your responsibility. End of story. I've fallen asleep several times in the 1ks on stars, but I never made some blog post about a guy ripping me off for being a dumbass. Time to use all the money you've amassed playing bingo and step up and play some MTTs. Sorry playing super turbo HU not impressive measure of skill. Just like Jorg95.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous,
ReplyDeleteI was 2 seconds away from deleting your post but I just couldn't help myself. I guess you caught me at a good time because I just got up and didn't have the great night of sleep.
First off, you are very brave to come on an online blog & post your hater comments under such a name.
Once again, it's my own fault but that doesn't mean the guy isn't a scumbag for doing what he did. It sounds like you're a scumbag too.
In regards to this: "Time to use all the money you've amassed playing bingo and step up and play some MTTs. Sorry playing super turbo HU not impressive measure of skill." I'm sorry that you're delusional. It's hilarious that you use the example of MTTs instead of cash games. If you think beating MTTs takes so much more talent than beating winning regulars at $1K HU STs (30bb starting stacks) then you are sadly mistaken.
Moreover, I could crush MTTs if I wanted to focus on them as my main game. If you don't think so then you clearly don't know me. In fact, I'll bet I'm a better MTT player than you right now Anonymous. I haven't seen Anonymous going deep in MTTs so you must suck. I'm sorry but you don't have to be Einstein to beat MTTs. Unfortunately, I'll never prove you wrong because I like life balance. The scheduling of MTTs is awful for overall life. You often have to play 12 hours in a row, not knowing when you'll be available. Then the biggest MTTs are always on weekends when more social related activities tend to occur. Sorry but it's not for me. I'll keep playing HU STs and be able to stop anytime I want within 10 minutes, not having to play long hours, & not having to play weekends. Also, you probably don't realize how ridiculous the variance in MTTs is.
As far as jorj, the man is a machine. I'm sure his bank account doesn't care what you think.
Stop hating and get a life. Also, thanks for the inspiration. Haters like you give me the ambition to keep working hard.
Thanks & GL,
Jared
http://www.jaredhubbard.com/
http://twitter.com/jhubpoker
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Jared-Hubbard-Poker/221586851240049
http://jhubpoker.blogspot.com/
If you think beating MTTs takes so much more talent than beating winning regulars at $1K HU STs (30bb starting stacks) then you are sadly mistaken.
ReplyDeleteThis is a joke right? You're playing a game thats 100% preflop where all you have to do is shove more than the other guy. The blinds are at 100 after 3 mins. You're telling me thats more skill than grinding a MTT OR A CASH GAME? You can only compare the highest sng stakes w the highest tourney stakes and there is no comparison there. You play those games because thats the limit of your game and thats how you make money. MTTs is a much easier grind than doing what you and jorj95 do if you have talent - You are putting it way more volume than a talented TOP Cash Pro or TOP MTT player and you aren't making as much. You are at the very elite top of SNG so its only fair to compare you to the ELITE tournament players. You are the one thats delusional if you think thats "bettering" your game. I'm willing to bet you don't want to grind such high volume your entire life and the only way to do that is to further your game to cash or MTTs. I know WHY you do SNGs, but until you prove that you can do something else, thats the limit of your game. You're only lying to yourself if you think your game has evolved playing games that are mostly preflop pushing and you are never in tough decisions post flop. I respect your ability to make money, your dedication, as far as your poker ability I'm not impressed. Jorj95 - his MTT results are nothing spectacular, nothing "machine" like in anyway. He's a SNG machine, thats it and thats all he'll ever be, but he may ding a score here or there, just like you might because when you have a power roll and if you actually dedicated your time to playing MTT, you will win one. But neither of your will ever have the kind of success outside of SNG in cash or MTT. I hope that drives you to further your game. Seriously tho - 1.5m earnings and whining about leaving money registered and ripped off? Btw I chose to use the MTT example because you are most likely to succeed in a them vs a cash game. But since you brought it up, you would be making way more money w 1.5m roll playing cash than bingoing ST HU if you had any edge on the game at all. It has all the same conveniences as the STs. There is a lot less thinking involved in those ST Hus than high stakes cash game too. Thats just a fact. Also, I'm sure you could beat MTTs, because you have the bankroll to beat them, however, you have this superego w being the best. I highly doubt even if you dedicated yourself you could never be one of the top online pros in MTTs or a top CG player. On some level, you should always want to improve your game, and you're only lying to yourself if you honestly believe that grinding 1k STs on a 1.5m roll accomplish that. You are the best turbo SNG player in the world - I'll give you that, happy? If that's what you're satisfied with, so be it.
Anonymous,
DeleteOnce again, sick screen name you brave soul you.
It sounds to me like you are a GIANT HU fish, just like most MTT players. That's not a knock against MTT players. It's not their specialty, but don't come in here and act like you know what you are talking about. HU STs with 30bb starting stacks are mostly pushing preflop? Lol are you f'n kidding me? That's maybe 25% of it. In fact, most MTT structures contain a ton of preflop pushing and it's probably no different. Lol at never being in a tough decision post-flop. I suggest you go play $1K regs for 4 hours straight. I can guarantee you that you will be put in way more tough spots post-flop than you would grinding MTTs. I have been told by other top HU ST regulars that I play well post-flop and would do very good in turbos or regular speed HU SNGs. However, I choose to play HU STs for a couple of reasons. First off, they're simply more profitable because of the games/hr you can get in. Second off, the turbo and regular speeds don't even fill often enough to bother anymore. This is because everyone else realizes the profitability of HU STs.
"You are putting it way more volume than a talented TOP Cash Pro or TOP MTT player and you aren't making as much. You are at the very elite top of SNG so its only fair to compare you to the ELITE tournament players." Let me use your line: This is a joke right? I've played 170.8 hours this year. Since you're probably too stupid to figure out the math let me do it for you. That's 23 hours per week. 23 hours per week! The average MTT player pro probably plays 50-60 hours per week. My EV on the year is $44,933.15. Let's not forget that's playing 23 hours per week. Then we factor in another $20K+ of rakeback. Also, let's not forget I'm playing on a network that accepts U.S. players! Playing 50 hours per week that would be $386K+ even if I took 8 weeks off. Go find me an MTT player playing strictly online on a U.S. friendly site making that much money and I'll call you a liar. There simply aren't any.
Compare me to players playing on U.S. friendly sites. It's the only logical way to do things. Stop comparing me to people playing on Pokerstars and traveling the tournament circuit. Also, stop telling me why I do things. Could I make more money if I played more MTTs? I most likely could. However, I have already stated how the scheduling if awful. Even as an online player you often have to play 10-12 hour days, not being able to predict when you will be done. You also have to play most weekends. It's a great way for a lot of people to make a very good living. However, if I can make a shitload of money playing another form of poker where I don't have to play weekends, don't have to play long hours, and can stop registering for games at anytime and be done in 10 minutes I will. I value life balance. Clearly you don't. Money isn't everything. I make $300K+ per year. Why would I want to sacrifice my overall life to make more money? How much money do I need? I guess we're different in that regard. It's time for you to realize that and stop putting your thoughts into my head.
Also, I have no intentions of ever traveling the live tournament circuit regularly. For one, I'm a married man and don't want to constantly be leaving my family and friends. Second off, I like traveling but would hate the constant traveling that players playing the circuit do. That's added to everything else I hate about MTTs. Some people love it but it's not for me.
Thanks & GL,
Jared
http://www.jaredhubbard.com/
http://twitter.com/jhubpoker
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Jared-Hubbard-Poker/221586851240049
http://jhubpoker.blogspot.com/
Actually, I forgot to translate that $386K into 50 hours per week. $386K would be playing 23 hours per week for 44 weeks. If I was actually playing 50 hours per week like many MTT pros it would be almost $840K.
DeleteThanks & GL,
Jared
http://www.jaredhubbard.com/
http://twitter.com/jhubpoker
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Jared-Hubbard-Poker/221586851240049
http://jhubpoker.blogspot.com/
Jhub- i'd just like to retract my comments. I apologize for bashing you - you didn't deserve to be bashed at all. What poker needs is more people with your honesty and it would be nice to look to a time when people didn't rip off others when they know they aren't there and battle you out in a fair game. I have no hate, sorry for taking my frustrations out on you. Keep doing what you're doing and good luck. You obviously have worked hard to be where you're at and deserve to be there and as a player myself I should respect the few out there that have your class and sportsmanship. Truth.
ReplyDeleteContinued...
ReplyDeleteI don't want to grind such high volume my entire life? Well, I don't exactly consider 23 hours per week slave work but for your information I invest a large chunk of the money I make each year and am certainly setup for early retirement if I wish.
Once again, I wasn't whining about losing $1.5K. I took full responsibility for forgetting to unregister. I was simply pointing out how big of a scumbag move tyraak made. How many times do I have to say that to get it through your head.
As far as playing cash games and improving my game, I will almost certainly play cash games at some point in my life. In fact, HU cash will likely be my next step. However, my main reason for doing so will be to keep things interesting. If I'm going to be playing this game for a while I'll probably want to mix it up and play different games. I just started playing HU SNGs and have no intention of moving on anytime soon. I like to focus on getting to the top of one game and then moving on. Will I ever be a top cash game player? It depends what you consider top but the short answer is probably not. I would be as delusional as you if I compared myself to guys like Dwan and Galfond. Could I become a top MTT player? There's no doubt in my mind I could.
"You are the best turbo SNG player in the world - I'll give you that, happy?" First off, I play STs. Second off, saying I'm the best in the world at that is pretty ridiculous and shows that you have no idea what you are talking about. Considering that I don't play on Pokerstars, I have no idea how I stack up against guys like Serkules or R-Quaresma, but I have to think they're better than me. Am I the best HU ST player playing on a US friendly site? That's a lot more reasonable of a statement but there's certainly still an argument there.
I don't know who you are since you're an anonymous coward, but I am very confident that you haven't accomplished anywhere near what I have in the poker world. Yet you come on here and try to act like it's so easy to accomplish what I have and say I should be looking for more. Lol. Just stop. You don't know what I want out of life or poker. I'm not you. I have my own thought process. I have my own goals. I value different things in life.
I don't act like it's English class when I type on online blogs, but seriously if you want to be seen as a person with any intelligence at least break your long delusional, illogical rant into more than one paragraph.
Thanks & GL,
Jared
http://www.jaredhubbard.com/
http://twitter.com/jhubpoker
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Jared-Hubbard-Poker/221586851240049
http://jhubpoker.blogspot.com/
Jhub, I already apologized, retracted my comments. The only thing I stand by is the ST HUs requiring more skill than MTTs like the nightly high roller, the 82 rebuys, the 60 rebuys, the 109 1r1a,etc. I shouldn't have to explain this to you - you already know that the bigger the blinds are w relation to stacks, the less skill is involved. There's a good chunk of strong players in all the big tournaments on merge.
ReplyDeleteLike I said, my bash was misplaced and it would be nice to see other people in poker who have your same views on ethics. And I compared what you were doing on stars to stars MTT players. It was a fair comparison. Maybe looking back now your volume/profit in SNG is pretty comparable to a top MTT player. Poker is coming back around in the US and eventually MTT players will be able to make more than they are making now.
My apology was sincere, but I guess you chose to ignore it and continue to respond to my post(I guess I don't blame you for that). You obv have a nice niche w the ST HU, an easy grind, you enjoy doing it, and theres really no reason to change at the moment and my thoughts about your game are irrelevant. There are plenty of bad guys in the industry and you aren't one of them.
As far as your hours are concerned, when you do play, you're playing several HUs at once and for a while, which personally is more taxing to me than grinding some MTTs or cash games(non HU). The decisions aren't harder IMO, but you have to make a lot more decisions in a given time period esp multi tabling them. But you enjoy it, and it works for you, so GL, and I'm sorry for hating.
How many people would bash a guy anonymously, then apologize? Just saying. Life Balance. That's what I got out of this. I need a better life balance. Thanks for the replies.
My comments were posted before you retracted yours, or at least before I saw the retracted post.
ReplyDeleteIn regards to there being more skill involved the higher the blinds you are absolutely correct. However, in HU you are involved in way more hands, seeing way more flops. It's not even close. You have way more post-flop play in HU STs than MTTs.
When I played on Stars I was just starting out and also was playing 6 man turbos. I have been playing some HU less than a year and basically only HU since November.
The decisions in HU are definitely more taxing. They take way more mental focus, but I also think that makes them more interesting. However, I could certainly play 40 hour weeks of HU if I needed to.
I think MTTs are the most fun form of poker. I just absolutely hate the way they fit into an overall life.
Thanks & GL,
Jared
http://www.jaredhubbard.com/
http://twitter.com/jhubpoker
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Jared-Hubbard-Poker/221586851240049
http://jhubpoker.blogspot.com/